Part Two: A look at the individuals cited Murphy’s article
On the 9th of February 2012 the Irish Examiner featured an extraordinary article by Dervla Murphy calling on Irish President Michael D. Higgins not to visit Israel. The intellectual dishonesty of Ms. Murphy’s article stands out, as does the extremism of advocating a one-state solution.
The second part of this article analyses the views of the critics that Murphy quotes as a test of their credability. There is also further analysis of some points she made in her open-letter. Part one looks at the broad issues raised by her article.
Tony Judt
Murphy gets down to business by referring to the “many Jewish supporters” of the BDS movement:
Tony Judt was among many Jewish supporters of the BDS (Boycott, Divestment, Sanction) campaign.She quotes a statement by Tony Judt, shortly before his death, perhaps to add an emotive element:
Not long before his death he repeated his call for the EU to use its “enormous leverage” and say to Israel: “So long as you break international law, you can’t be part of the EU market”.
He defined our reason for not doing this as “ridiculous self-blackmail”. His Dutch and German friends said to him: ‘We couldn’t do that! Think of what we did to the Jews. We can’t use economic leverage against Israel. We can’t be a critic of Israel… Why? Because of Auschwitz…”
Judt conflates two very different things: criticism of Israel, and sanctions, to advance his point of view.
Judt continued: “I understand that. Many of my family were killed in Auschwitz. However, Europe can’t live indefinitely on the credit of someone else’s crimes to justify a state that creates and commits its own crimes… […] the European bad conscience is part of the problem.”The EU maintains ties with Israel because it is clearly in their economic interests to do so. It is a small but hugely productive economy, of which many major international companies have research bases. Israel also produces more than its fair share of cutting edge technology, especially in the field of health.
Israel should not be special because it is Jewish. Jews are to have a state just like everyone else, it should have no more rights than Slovenia and no fewer.Here Murphy suggests through Judt’s voice that the EU give more rights to Israel than other states. That is complete nonsense. The truth is that the EU, and its member states, frequently lambast Israel, far more so than other nations that have a contested human rights record. China is one such example.
It is worth pointing out that Tony Judt was a troubling individual, not because he criticised Israel, for that was his right but rather due to the way in which he attacked it. He called Israel an “anachronism” that should be done away with, and dismissed as a “cliché” the idea that attacks against Israel can be motivated by anti-Semitism. He also excused suicide attacks against Jews because “the Palestinians have no other weapons.”
Bizarrely Judt blamed Israel for the increased incidents of anti-Semitism outside Israel. He stated in “Israel: The Alternative”
Today, non-Israeli Jews feel themselves once again exposed to criticism and vulnerable to attack for things they didn’t do. But this time it is a Jewish state, not a Christian one, which is holding them hostage for its own actions. Diaspora Jews cannot influence Israeli policies, but they are implicitly identified with them, not least by Israel’s own insistent claims upon their allegiance. The behavior of a self-described Jewish state affects the way everyone else looks at Jews.This argument illustrates the absurdity and irrationalism at the core of Judt’s thoughts on the subject. To quote Leon Wieseltier in the New Republic:
He [Judt] finds himself “implicitly identified” with Israel’s actions in, say, Jenin. But he was nowhere near Jenin. He killed nobody. Indeed, he is ferociously opposed to the killings, and to the policies of the Sharon government in the territories generally. All he has to do, then, is to say so, and then to express his anger at the suggestion that he is in any way responsible for what he, too, deplores. For the notion that all Jews are responsible for whatever any Jews do, that every deed that a Jew does is a Jewish deed, is not a Zionist notion. It is an anti-Semitic notion. But Judt prefers to regard it as an onerous corollary of Zionism (“not least by Israel’s own insistent claims upon their allegiance”). He refuses to place the blame for this unwarranted judgment of himself upon those who make it. Instead he accepts the premise of the prejudice, and turns on Israel. He makes a similar mistake in his evaluation of “the increased incidence of attacks on Jews in Europe.”It is a paragon of anti-Semitism (and racism more generally) to judge all Jews by the actions of some. Why would anti-Zionists target all Jews when some like himself shout so loudly against Israel?
Clearly the answer is difficult to come by but it would seem that at some level Judt may have identified with this extremism, almost as a rejection of his identity as a Jewish individual, and partly agreed with the stance of the anti-Semites who targeted Jews. Why else would he blame Israel rather than the perpetuators? Perhaps it is fitting for Ms. Murphy to have quoted such a confused divided individual.
It is worth adding that pro-Palestinians criticise opponents who state that certain Jewish critics are self-hating. It would be wrong to suggest all Jewish critics of Israel are likely to be self-hating. However, self-hatred is apparent among various minorities, where some people internalise the oppressive views of others, and come to dislike their identity. This issue would likely manifest in Jewish people too, especially given such cultural antipathy that portrays them as extremely immoral, greedy, cunning etc.
Lisa Taraki
Dervla Murphy wrote:
In the words of Lisa Taraki, a co-founder [of the BDS movement], “the basic logic of BDS is the logic of pressure — not diplomacy, persuasion or dialogue”.Murphy affirms that pressure is the way to go with Israel, rather than dialogue. A stark admission to make that illustrates the author’s extremism. Despite the nonsensical point about a “logic of pressure”, Lisa Taraki is a Professor of Sociology at Bir Zeit University near Ramallah, and a prominent speaker who seeks to boycott of Israel at an economic, artistic, and academic level. To quote Taraki’s speech more comprehensively:
What Palestinians are beginning to realize now with the failure of the political process and dialog, is a new logic of BDS; not a logic of persuasion but of pressure. . . . It’s not a boycott of individual Israelis, but of institutions, and the major cultural institutions are complicit in the domination of oppression. . . . The problem is the Israeli state and what upholds its power . . . virtually all Israeli institutions are complicit.Taraki claims the BDS movement does not seek the boycott of individuals. This is an obfuscation because in reality a boycott would not merely discriminate against institutions, it would discriminate against individuals, even if they only have a loose association with the relevant institutions. One example is BDS activists pressuring universities all over the world to stop programmes for Israeli students. Rather than seeking a selective boycott, the BDS movement seeks the complete isolation of every sphere of Israeli society on the basis of a certain nationality tied to religion and ethnicity/race.
It should be noted that in order to justify the academic boycott, Ms. Taraki attempted to suggest Israeli universities are somehow unfree, and used to forward a supposed colonial enterprise. In reality, it is well known Israeli universities are a breeding ground for post-Zionist ideology.
PACBI (Palestinian Campaign for the Academic and Cultural Boycott of Israel), the pre-eminent BDS organisation which Taraki co-founded, claims that “resistance in all its forms is a legitimate right” of Palestinians. It is a significant statement because such groups describe terrorism as “resistance”. Thus they advocate terrorism as one form of morally legitimate “resistance” since all forms have that status.
Lisa Taraki is also on the board of Al Haq, a Ramallah based NGO. It is a prominent BDS group that also defended terrorism as resistance. Other board members include Shawan Jabarin who was heavily involved with the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) terror group. Al Haq was also heavily involved at Durban.
It should be noted that delegates declared the intention of using the Durban I conference as a weapon to harm Israel, and indeed the pro-Palestinian NGOs at the event enshrined the methods for Israel’s demonisation. Jews were denied the opportunity to serve on committees at Durban I, and faced pamphlets asking “What if Hitler had won?” etc.
Udi Aloni
Murphy quotes Udi Aloni at length:
As the Israeli-American writer and film-maker Udi Aloni explains: “The local strain of apartheid policy nurtured by Israel is precisely the reason why so many Jews all over the world have joined the BDS campaign, key issue for those who are trying to prevent violence against Israel while simultaneously countering its arrogant and aggressive policies… thus BDS actions do not amount to negative, counter-productive moves, as many propagandists try to portray them… they are actions of solidarity, partnership and joint progress serving to preempt, in a non-violent manner, justified violent resistance aimed at attaining the same goals of justice, peace and equality.”Through the above quote, Murphy claims that the BDS movement takes action in order to prevent violence from happening! The BDS movement emphasises its peaceful intent but that claim should be treated with scepticism when numerous BDS organisations actually legitimise “resistance” in all forms.
Udi Aloni is a prolific advocate for BDS and the one-state solution through his films and books. Despite his limited English skills, he typically waxes lyrical on the prospect of peace with a nation united. His statement from which Murphy quotes, is a paragon of one-sided left-wing absurdity, which not only seeks to nullify Israel as a Jewish state, it lacks any requirement for Palestinians to end terrorism after an immediate withdrawal from the settlements. He baldly states:
The three very basic principles of BDS are:
- An immediate end of the occupation
- Full equality to all Palestinian citizens of the state of Israel
- Legal and moral Recognition of the Palestinian refugees’ right of return
Aloni doesn’t seem to think Israel has any right to exist, even in the pre-1967 borders because it is cast as a humiliating 60 year occupation:
You roll your eyes, use your loving words in the service of your conquering people and call upon the Palestinians to surrender in a tender voice. You bestow upon Israel the role of liberator. Upon Israel — that for over 60 years, has been occupying and humiliating them.Aloni attacked Judge Goldstone viciously in an article that gave out about Goldstone after he refuted some of findings of the highly prejudicial UN Report on Gaza. Aloni asserted: “Judge Goldstone is, in fact, legitimizing apartheid.” but Aloni himself has an unfortunate way of dealing with facts to suit his own purposes.
Aloni erroneously claimed Jewish settlers are subsidised by the US taxpayer. He claimed Israel is not a real democracy, and cites, as proof of Apartheid, the limited citizenship of Arabs in East Jerusalem who are unable to vote. However, the Arabs of East Jerusalem aren’t Israeli citizens as most refused it. Therefore, voting rights are limited but they are able to vote in local municipal elections, and the more important Palestinian legislative elections. He even expects Israel to build housing for Palestinians in the refugee camps because they do so for Jewish settlers. However, Israel only has control over Area C in Oslo II, which represents Jewish habitation. He also presents his mother as a disenchanted Zionist:
“Mom, is all this apartheid?”
With the sigh of a betrayed lover she indicated that, yes, this is apartheid. My heart broke.
We are a nefarious people. What we are doing in the West Bank is worse than all the pogroms done to the Jews.Like other anti-Zionist Jews, it seems Aloni has issues with his identity. Even though he already does a great deal for his Palestinian friends, he still feels that he cannot “perform” his Jewishness (!) without reservation:
After so many years of this horrific occupation, when we lost our human side, I felt as a Jew living in Israel that the only way I can perform my Jewishness now is with the unconditional solidarity with my Palestinian brothers and sisters.
Vitzhak Laor
Dervla Murphy then cites poet Vitzhak Laor in her article to suggest Israel behaves in a manipulative fashion to try to sway public opinion abroad:
In 2008, Israeli writer Vitzhak Laor revealed that Israelis accepting foreign ministry funding for taking their culture or artistic work abroad were obliged to sign a contract undertaking to act faithfully, responsibly, and tirelessly to provide the ministry with the highest professional services. The service provider is aware that the purpose of ordering services from him is to promote the policy interests of the state of Israel via culture and art, including contributing to creating a positive image for Israel.So much for freedom of speech, if the “service provider” disagreed with some of the state’s policies.
It should be noted that the claims of Vitzhak Laor need to be treated with scepticism. He wouldn’t be an impartial source on the topic because he is so virulently anti-Zionist that he has often rewritten very basic history, in the past:
…the claim that Israel faced an existential threat in 1967 was a propaganda lie. It would have been possible to unravel the complicated situation caused by Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser, but Israel and the United States decided to exploit the Egyptian mistake.
… But the only concession we needed to make, even back in 1967, was giving up the messianic claim that this is our land, from the Bible, and therefore we have a right to it.
Laor went as far as to add credence to the Al-Dura travesty, propagated by the French media, which has been used as a method of incitement in the Arab world since. Laor’s misrepresentations are so extravagant that some are tempted to say he is a dishonest individual.
Judith Butler
Dervla Murphy cites Judith Butler’s particularly extreme view that there cannot and should not be any sense of normal life in Israel, and neither is any Israeli entitled to neutrality over the issue of BDS, (the absurdity of this stance is addressed in Part One of this article under ‘Israeli’s ain’t “normal”’):
Modai’s [the Israeli Ambassador to Ireland] claim the film festival was non-political should be considered in the light of University of California professor Judith Butler’s thinking on BDS and normalisation: Israelis have the power to oppose the occupation through BDS, the most powerful non-violent means available. Things change the minute you say “we cannot continue to act as normal”. To work to the side of the occupation is to participate in its normalisation. And the way that normalisation works is to efface or distort the reality of the occupation within public discourse. As a result, neutrality is not an option.And of course Ms. Murphy includes the by now obligatory “I’m-not-a-horrid-anti-Semite-because-I-am-citing-a-Jew” point by referencing the tragedy Butler’s ancestors faced, as she did with Tony Judt:
Many of Butler’s family were holocaust victims. She grew up in the US in a household sympathetic to Israel.
In reality, Judith Butler is not another disenchanted Jew, of which the pro-Palestinian movement make much of. She is in fact a virulent anti-Zionist who seems to bend over backwards to defend anti-Semitism, and in essence seeks the end of the Jewish State. Many of her other views are also bizarre. For example, as a “Queer Studies expert”, she thinks that people with gender dysphoria should go through dangerous and life-changing transgender operations at will, without psychological evaluation beforehand.
The Olga Document
Ms. Murphy continues her theme of Jewish criticism of Israel by citing a text written in 2004:
Eight years ago, a large group of Israeli scholars and activists met at Givat Olgo… they issued the Olga Appeal. It notes: “The state of Israel was supposed to be a democracy; it has set up a colonial structure combining unmistakable elements of apartheid with the arbitrariness of brutal military occupation… We are united in a critique of Zionism, based as it is on refusal to acknowledge the indigenous people of this country and on denial of their rights, on dispossession of their lands, and on adoption of separation as a fundamental principal and way of life. Adding insult to injury, Israel persists in its refusal to bear any responsibility for its deeds, from the expulsion of the majority of Palestinians from their homeland more than half a century ago, to the present erection of ghetto walls around the remaining Palestinians in the towns and villages of the West Bank.”
The Olga Appeal seeks to stimulate debate about binationalism…Ms. Murphy whitewashes the intent of the text, the aim of which appears to be to demonise the State of Israel. Its authors included extremist academics like Anat Biletzky who was one of the “scholars” who claimed in 2002 that Israel was going to perpetuate a vast act of mass genocide against the Palestinian populace, come an invasion of Iraq. If they were speaking the truth, was their crystal ball a tad dirty?
To quote an analysis of the Olga Document (or letter) in Commentary Magazine:
Israel, the letter says, is a “death trap” and “the biggest ghetto in the entire history of the Jews”; “military operations and wars has [sic] become the life-support drug of Israel’s Jews.” It goes on to state that “we are living in a benighted colonial reality — in the heart of darkness”; and that Israel seems “determined to pulverize the Palestinian people to dust” by subjecting them to “the nightmare of apartheid, the burden of humiliation and the demons of destruction employed by Israel unremittingly, day and night, for 37 years.” Out of “racist arrogance,” the document claims, Israelis across the political spectrum “depict the Palestinians as subhuman.”Judging by the extraordinary language used in the text, it is a tract that features sentiments that bear more than a passing resemblance to unhinged self-hating racism. The letter calls Israel the biggest Jewish Ghetto that has ever existed. It also claims that “Israel’s Jews” are somehow addicted to the violence of militarism, conflict and war.
The text is a nonsense that betrays in the authors a very limited appreciation of truth. For example, it claims Israel is attempting to completely destroy the Palestinian people. Yet census figures indicate that the Palestinian people of Gaza and the West Bank had increased from one million people in 1969 to roughly four million by 2004. A four-fold increase in populace in less than forty years is a substantial achievement, which is simply incompatible with any claim of genocide, unless the highly professional IDF are in fact the genocidal equivalent of Dad’s Army!
Other than some extremists who make utterances that are rightly condemned, and given substantial coverage in the mainstream media, Israeli’s do not depict Palestinians as sub-human. By contrast the Palestinian-Arabs continually incite hatred for Jewish people. The letter also makes the claim that the Arabs are “indigenous” to the land, which infers the Jews are not. The Jews do conform to the true definition of an indigenous displaced people, making it a denial of Jewish history.
The question of Israel being an apartheid state in any way akin to South Africa is also an absurdity. All citizens of Israel have the same right to vote, and stand for election to the Israeli Parliament. Some cite the divergent laws in the so-called “Occupied Territories”. That is another canard. Under the Oslo Accords, Israel was to administer the zones with Jewish occupation, and the Palestinians their own. The Jewish zone (Area C) comes under military law, which is effectively the same as laws in Israel itself, whilst the Palestinians have their own legislator. Thus, the apartheid-accusers use the very results of a peace process, intended to devolve and create a Palestinian State, as a club to beat Israel with!
Mazin Qumsiyeh
Murphy quotes Mazin Qumsiyeh, another BDS advocate who seems to have a limited grasp of the historical facts of the conflict:
In the land of Canaan, Jews, Christians, and Muslims working together to make the change need more pressure from outside and are beginning to show some progress.”
The town of Bethlehem once had an 85% Christian population at the end of the British Mandate. Areas under Jordanian control experienced a large exodus of Christians, especially East Jerusalem, which lost roughly two-thirds of its Christian populace in a mere nineteen years! Furthermore, a bitter civil war erupted between Lebanese Christians and Muslims during the 1970’s, in part at the instigation of the PLO after they were pushed out of Jordan. These issues had an impact on Bethlehem but it was still over 60% Christian by the 1990’s. However, there has been a mass exodus of Christians since the Pa! lestinian Authority took over in 1995. From the very start Arafat marginalised the Christian populace, and today Christians make up around 15% of the town. By contrast, Israel is the only nation in the Middle East where all can practice their respective faiths unmolested.
The failure of Islamic-Arab society to show tolerance toward their Christian brethren throughout the Middle East would surely cast doubt on Ms. Murphy’s suggestion of a bi-national Jewish-Islamic state, where there is monumentally more hostility toward Jews than Christians. The truth is that such a state would be a short step away from the mass genocide or at best the mass expulsion of Israel’s Jews.
Ali Abunimah
Near the end of her article, Ms. Murphy quotes an inspirational tract:
In actual fact Ali Abunimah is a 40+ year old Palestinian journalist. He is a seasoned figure on the BDS scene. Whilst he is young in comparison to Ms. Murphy’s years, it is misleading to present a middle-aged man to the reader as some sort of innocent Palestinian youth.Ali Abunimah, a young Palestinian-American, emphasises a crucially important point: “By talking of a common future and imagining it, we engage in the act of creating it; we introduce a different prospect to endless war. It is only through shattering taboos and articulating a vision that we can move the idea… from the far margins to the centre of discussion. Simply by admitting the notion to the range of possibilities, we change the landscape.”
Mr. Abunimah is far from the dovish individual he is presented as being. He is the co-founder of Electronic Intifada, which says a lot for his extremism, and has written tracts with the likes of Omar Barghouti. In 2009 he twittered “Isn’t it the time for a popular Palestinian revolution in the form of a third intifada?” and made other charming statements such as “Supporting Zionism is not atonement for the Holocaust, but its continuation in spirit.”, and “Ending the occupation does not solve the problem. The Jews do not view all human beings as equal. The 1948 borders were calculated to harm Christians, Arabs, Palestinians and Muslims.” which echoes the views of Barghouti.
Conclusion
Ms. Murphy has cited and quoted quite a number of individuals to advocate a very hard-line approach against Israel. They are presumably cited as paragons of virtue, at least with respect to this issue. Yet none of these people stand up to a modest level of scrutiny, to which they were subjected in this article.
This article was also published at Crethi Plethi.
10 comments:
Dervla's Delusions The letter a self-aware Dervla Murphy would have written.
Many of the questions you raise could and perhaps should be asked of the Irish.
*Is Murphy representing a majority point of view or an influential minority?
*If she represents a minority why don't the majority speak up?
*How willing are the Irish to take steps (such as BDS) that arguably damage their standard of living or even their existence as Irishmen?
*Would the Irish be as accepting of Irishmen campaigning for the end of the Republic of Ireland as the Jews are supposed to be of Jews campaigning for the end of the state of Israel?
Hello David, welcome to the blog. To answer your four questions:
* Murphy represents a very influential and very vocal minority.
* The majority don’t care, and don’t really know that much about Israel beyond what appears on the mainstream media. It has as much to do with their lives as the price of tea in China, to borrow from an unrelated phrase.
* BDS has had some limited success in Ireland. A number of county councils adopted it. No universities have to the best of my knowledge. On the whole I think that business with Israel is more important than BDS but at the same time trade with Israel would dwarf trade with the Arab world.
* An issue of debate like the end of the Republic of Ireland has never come up so I couldn’t say how accepting Irish people would be of such proponents but I suspect it would test their patience severely.
I should add that I share your concern about pro-Palestinianism in Ireland. The concerns of many Israeli’s toward the Irish are legitimate as I know only too well there is a great deal of pro-Palestinianism here but at the same time it is easy to see the issue too starkly. My own view is that there are many people in Ireland who don’t care that much since the conflict is in some senses a long way away. Few invest much in the issue so the activities of a minority of fanatics always lead the debate. These people are highly active, well financed and organised. This minority are not small in number either. By contrast the tiny pro-Israel movement is disappointing. They don’t even have a website just to try to give a response to the current controversy! In its totality this results in most Irish people seeing strong criticism of Israel as a normal moral stance to have. The tragedy is that so many haters, who in very many instances are covert anti-Semites, push lies/propaganda with a suitably humanitarian tone that others simply don’t doubt.
Sein Fein/IRA and the far-left (scum like Richard Boyd-Barrett) are especially vocal, and many in the political establishment lend weight to the posturing of these lunatics, although the present government isn’t as bad as previous administrations. If you want to get a broad impression of pro-Palestinianism in Ireland, this slightly dated piece http://frontpagemag.com/2010/06/22/allied-in-anti-semitism-the-irish-connection-part-iii/ may help.
I have read your comments about 'staged' images of Palestinians suffering at the hands of the Israeli state.
Funny that, I have no idea from where your evidence is coming. I have personally been present and filmed many instances where Palestinians in Hebron have suffered from the soldiers of the Israeli state. I have never seen any instances where Israel is 'defending itself', but I have been present for many instances where these forces have been violent, cruel and brutal - without provocation - the elephant and the mouse.
I am not a supported of Sinn Fein/IRa and I challenge your view that Irish people who challenge the breaching of International law by Israel come from that stable, many of whose members supported the breaching of Irish law.
@Unknown/Gerry, thank you for your message, even if it is very critical, as my blog doesn't get much activity these days. I wish to note that wherever I make contentious claims, I cite examples. There has been a manifest amount of staging in Arab-Palestinian narratives, and it is displayed for international audiences. This is not a particularly new phenomenon in conflicts, although the anti-Israel cause pushes this form of endeavour to a new level.
It is interesting that you cite Hebron as your example. Although I am not attributing any desire to misinform on your part, Hebron is the prime location for such propaganda, along with Bil'in, with its "Peaceful protests". Any anti-Israel narrative has to ignore that Hebron is the second city of the Jewish faith, and was the scene of three episodes of massacre and ethnic cleansing in the last few hundred years. Any anti-Israel narrative has to ignore the fact that Hebron is unique within the West Bank as it is shared by both Muslims and Jews, so is a flashpoint of conflict. Indeed, during the Stabbing Intifada, a very substantial proportion of the Arab-Palestinian attackers came
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hebron-area-major-source-of-palestinian-stabbers-data-shows/ from Hebron. Any anti-Israel narrative has to ignore that Hebron has been largely given over to the Palestinian Authority in 1997 (80%), with the Herbron Accords, but was the scene of protracted terrorism against its Jewish residents during the Second Intifada http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/ForeignPolicy/Terrorism/Palestinian/Pages/Victims%20of%20Palestinian%20Violence%20and%20Terrorism%20sinc.aspx (if you don't like the source then kindly google the names for validation from other sources), so some streets are closed for the sake of safety http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=75&x_article=2743 - tellingly you also present scare quotes concerning Israel's response to violence, and indeed Mike Murphy's I.T. article uses it as another excuse to accuse Israel of Apartheid, despite the fact that Jewish residents are disbarred from all but access to a few percent of the city.
I have never stated that anti-Israel activists only come from the Sein Fein/IRA stable - they come from many spheres of politics, but there is a notable propensity with hard-left and associated radical Republican positions. I am sure you know this to be the truth. Just look at the names on any IPSC flyer or any street poster advertising a "talk" on the issue.
Israel does not breach Irish law, if that is what you are suggesting. Presumably you are referring to Elaine Daly's group. Israel is entitled to boot out trouble-makers, that told untruths about their innocent "study groups" going to the West Bank. They do indeed visit Bil'in, and meet a group that encourages confrontation with Israeli security personnel. Anyone who follows the issues knows its a demonisation exercise, even if the media and the Irish government chooses to believe they are humanitarian lambs being violated by Israel.
Does not look to me that you are not accusing me of propaganda. Even if I wished to do this, I could never reach the high standards of propoganda of Marc Regev - spokesperon for Israel during he last was on Gaza.
I do not ignore that Hevron (using the Jewish term) is not important to Jewish people and ranks second to Jerusalem.
One of the massacres to which you refer was carried out by Baruch Goldstein, the Brooklyn-born Orthodox Jew who took up residence in the illegal settlement of Kiryat Arba. He slaughtered 29 Palestinians in the mosque. The centre of Hebron city, Shuhada St., was then taken from the Palestinians for the safety of the illegal settlers living there. While it was the Palestinians who were murdered, the illegal settlers gained from the murder. Surely it was the Palestinians who needed protection from Mr Goldstein and his cohorts? . However, this fits right in with the distorted logic of zionists.
With reference to this statement: -
'Any anti-Israel narrative has to ignore that Hebron has been largely given over to the Palestinian Authority in 1997 (80%), with the Herbron Accords'
- you have it ass ways - it was the Palestinians who lost 100% of their city and the illegal settlers who gained 20%.
Your premise seems to come from your thinking that the West bank belongs to Zionists - International Law and the UN would disagree with you. Over 300,000 israelis live on the Palestinian side of the green line, the area that was designated for Palestinians by the UN in 1948. And he state of Israel continues to breach that law by continuing the building of settlements.
What would you do if people from another race came to build in your back garden, or put up a tent there? Would you stage a peaceful protest if they refused to move, had guns and were surrounded by their own country's soldiers. Surely you would be tempted to thro a little stone at their APC's? This is what SOME kids in the West Bank do. However, nearly 99% are charged for this - with no evidence.
Re this: 'Apartheid.'
Many Israelis aggree with this.
Re your comments, Sean:
'I have never stated that anti-Israel activists only come from the Sein Fein/IRA stable'
- you implied it by stating that this is from supporters of Palestine come from.
You claim I said this:
'Israel does not breach Irish law' _ you need to go back to what I wrote
and read it again. It would be a most stupid thing for me to say as it is not possible for Israel to breach Irish law - even after they killed and injured Irish UN soldiers in South Lebanon. . I said INTERNATIONAL Law.
In the very basic instance the state of Israel has broken the 4th Geneva convention which states that an occupying country cannot move its own citizens into the country which it occupies.
And if you want a list of other International laws that they have broken, particular to children, I refer you to a film I made :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBR_kLdR9sI
No idea who Elaine Daly is.
I do not get my info from websites and books , and I do not quote others, I see what I see with my own eyes by being on the ground in the illegaly occupied Palestinian territories in the west bank.
When were you last in Al Khalil/
Hevron? Let's meet for coffee on your next trip there?
Gerry I have dealt with these topics a thousand times already on this very blog. If you won't read the posts then I can't rewrite everything here for your edification, particularly on a Android phone after a few pints, but I'll address the comments in depth.
Maybe you reach to far higher standards of propaganda than Mark Regev because, without realising otherwise, you are part of the propaganda arm established by the father of Palestinianism (which BTW I define as anti-Israelism rather than meaningful support for the region's Arabs to come to an accommodation with Israel for their sake), Haij amin all Husseini. As such, you are part of a causal chain, whatever your motivation might be. I will assume decency on your part as you still communicate.
Gerry, you most certainly ignore the import of Hebron to Jews, and quit the BS by spelling it according to the Jewish tradition. Pay more attention to UNESCO, who wash away Jewish history at the Temple Mount, to present it solely as a Muslim worship site, and only name it as such. The reality is that Jews always lived in Hebron but were subjected to several episodes of ethnic cleansing and massacre. Their holy site was denied to them until Israel "occupied" the region.
Baruch Goldstein's massacre deserves to be sung from the rooftops as is rightly so but it is a cast iron fact that a huge multiple of those 29 lives were taken by Arab-Palestinain terrorists, hitting Jewish civilians over the recent decades. How about the massacres in 1980, which included Jewish teens. How about the earlier massacres, 1929 which included 68 people literally torn apart by their Arab neighbours, and 42 teens and teachers also slaughtered by Arabs? Ancieny history you say? What has changed, and where is the revulsion of the past? Do you want to measure blood and weigh the bodies of the innocents as RTE do? Do you want to deliberate upon sheer viciousness?
No sorry, Jews only have access to a few percent of Hebron. Israel ceded 80 % to the PA but 96% or so is ultimately designated as Arab-Palestinian. This is an indictment of Arab Palestinian society but your team would sooner call it Israeli Apartheid, worse than the original, defo... ROFL. How about you lot pay some respect to the true victims of Apartheid, who used different toilets, rather than score cheap propaganda points?
I'm sorry but you are misinformed on international law. The UN designated territory to the region's Arabs in 1947. As soon as the Arabs rejected UN181, the Brits frustrated the UN to stop its implication, and no less than five Arab armies declared war within hours of Israel declaring independence in May 1948. The 1949 Armistice Line is only the approximate point where the armies stopped fighting in a certain day. This is all historic fact. Do a google of reputable sites like Yale.edu and Princeton.edu which host the original agreements, to READ verbatim.
You cite international law but you would no doubt cite opinions rather than the original texts, which are in plain English. You are wrong. Only article 25 of the Mandate text demonstrates that what would become trans-Jordan could be used for something other than a Jewish National Home, and that the authorities were supposed to assist but the Brits in authority didn't. I challenge you to READ the ORIGINAL text. The text represents international law, given its passing by the predecessor body to the UN. Also read the Armistice Deal between Jordan and Israel (where the Arabs would not even meet Israel's face to face) forged in 1949. Arab-Palestinian rejections since the 1920s, how about that as an anniversary?
"2. It is also recognised that no provision of this Agreement shall in any way prejudice the rights, claims and positions of either Party hereto in the ultimate peaceful settlement of the Palestine question, the provisions of this Agreement being dictated exclusively by military considerations." http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/arm03.asp
[Reposting second comment to include a relevant link to the British Mandatory text, and remove a few inflammatory words]
Moreover, Article 6 http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/palmanda.asp#art6 facilitates the close settlement of waste (unfarmable, arid) land and public land. Now if you are going to suggest the League of Nations had no right, then consider that the Ottomans made vague promises of a Jewish National Home as well.
Israel doesn’t build settlements! It grants acknowledgement to some, and hadn't done so since 1999, as per Oslo. It does so to pressure the PA to come to an accommodation. I suggest you to read a fair bit of the blog, and come back with specific criticisms. Israel offered almost all of the PA's territory claims to them time and time again, only to be rebuffed.
Your humorous hypothetical is entirely wrongful. If it was true, I might even proudly die for such a righteous cause if I found myself in such a situation! But in view of the HISTORICAL record, Jews were returning for a mere portion of what they once occupied after having the shit kicked out of them by their Christian descendants. Invent history as you wish, you won't ever convince those abreast of the basics. Kindly don’t dismiss Arab-Palestinian terrorism as nothing more than throwing a few stones. That's the dishonest crap we hear time and time again.
You also don't know much about the genetic issue. Studies have repeatedly shown that Jews are Middle Eastern, and it may surprise you to know that most Jewish Israelis are in fact the descendants of Jews that were expelled from the Middle East, the Mizrahi. Do you wish to cleanse the Middle East of its most ancient culture, in its last significant enclave?
Kindly cite where I stated support for the Arab-Palestinian cause only came from Sein Fein? I have blasted the hard left for years. Creeps like Boyd Barrett and Paul “Intifada” Murphy, which are every bit as bad.
Dude, here's a newsflash. We may be of the same generation, which was told Israel were always killing Irish soldiers in Lebanon. It was bollocks. Israel only killed one Irish soldier in 1986. Kindly read my study on the issue, on this blog, two entries down.
You state: "the very basic instance the state of Israel has broken the 4th Geneva convention which states that an occupying country cannot move its own citizens into the country which it occupies." Except it didn’t. The article refers to mass pop transfers, a la the Nazis in Poland. Israel did not transfer its population into the West Bank. Take Hebron, was it not the case that a few Jewish families forced the State to accommodate them in a military base, after holing themselves up in a hotel in Hebron in 1968?
You state "i do not get my info from websites and books , and I do not quote others, I see what I see with my own eyes by being on the ground in the illegally occupied Palestinian territories in the west bank." That makes you a bigot, for you refuse to read the sources I provide, which have substantive validation, while absurdly citing your own film on YouTube - that's vanity citation. Get out of the dark age. Many online sources and books have a reputation for veracity.
Gerry, I would like to suggest that it is an outright absurdity to cite statistics, cite historic events, and cite opinions of international law, whilst professing that you only get your information first-hand by witnessing events, rather than through books and websites. The context of this conflict ultimately dictates the rights and wrongs of the two parties, so it cannot be disclosed. However, you only appear to take issue with material that does not correspond with the stance you espouse.
Great bblog
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