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| Roger Waters (former member of Pink Floyd) with Sadaka Board Members launching the Sadaka Education Resource on Palestine-Israel. (Source: Sadaka) |
Former Pink-Floyd member, Roger Waters, endorsed and promoted an “education resource” for Irish second-level transition students on the 17th of September, before presenting a much-discussed Amnesty International Ambassador of Conscience award to Malala Yousafzai, later that same day.
Some objected to Waters presenting the honour due to the use of anti-Semitic motifs at his concerts in recent years. However, Amnesty has long been a politically partisan organisation. Amnesty’s bias was aptly illustrated on the night in question: Malala Yousafzai’s much-deserved award was shared with Harry Belafonte! While Belafonte contributed to the 1960’s Civil Rights movement, in more recent years he stirred controversy with demented and very often hateful commentaries.
Surprise may be tempered by foreknowledge of the characters involved, and if Waters’ forceful record on politics is an indicator, his endorsement was likely to be sought by a prejudicial party. Indeed, the modular course deals with the Israel-Palestine conflict, one of Mr. Waters’ pet subjects. Another piece of the jigsaw fell into place when it was revealed that the programme was developed by a group called Sadaka — The Ireland Palestine Alliance.
It is reputedly the first curriculum approved teaching module on the topic, and will be used in both the Republic and North of Ireland. The chairwoman of Sadaka pointed out that Waters’ endorsement of the pack would be “immeasurable in its importance and will be hugely influential with young people around the country”. Its launch was held at the Royal Irish Academy, a rather prestigious venue for furthering academic endeavour.
The educational programme bears all the hallmarks of propaganda, featuring an extremely slanted account of the Israel-Palestine conflict.
Sadaka is an organisation that closely monitors the activities of the Irish Parliamentary houses, to influence outlooks and policy decisions, for example, with the hosting of anti-Israel delegations that at times indicate the organisation works quite closely with the parliamentary members comprising Oireachtas Friends of Palestine.
Sadaka supports the boycott of all Israel, an absolute ban on all Jewish produce originating in Judea and Samaria (West Bank), Israel’s cessation as a Jewish majority state by advocating for a right of return for the descendents of all Arab refugees, and the immediate withdrawal of Israeli forces from all contested areas. Some of those hostile to the Jewish State erroneously claim that Israel discriminates at an institutional level against Arab non-citizens in the contested territory of Judea and Samaria (or West Bank), when in fact alternative legislature for the Arab-Palestinian populace was enshrined in the Oslo Accords, where the Palestinian Authority obtained jurisdiction over almost all Arab-Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. Yet Sadaka goes even further by claiming that Israel is an apartheid state in its entirety, discriminating against its Palestinian citizens at an institutional level.
Sadaka is an Islamic term for a type of religiously motivated voluntary charity, albeit one with a layered and sometimes less benign meaning. Sadaka comes across as a well-moneyed group, although their patronage webpage has remained empty for a number of years.
Despite the fact that the Irish media is comprehensively pro-Palestinian, it remains a key aim of Sadaka to shout down what it calls ‘Israeli propaganda’:
To illustrate Sadaka’s approach to the Israel-Palestine conflict, it should be noted that the group coaches anti-Israel neophytes with extremely inaccurate information. It unashamedly coaches the naive in sophistic techniques to defeat the arguments of those possessing other political views. For example, a lengthy article by founding Sadaka member David Morrison, entitled “How to argue the case”, states:
Morrison cites a 2009 interview with Khaled Mashaal, claiming that Hamas would accept Israel’s right to exist. Such fanciful claims have been peddled about for years.
Sadaka does not content itself with bashing Israel. They also advance pro-Iranian stances, claiming Iran acts transparently vis-à-vis its attempt to obtain nuclear weapons, whilst ignoring its genocidal threats:
Sadaka is associated with many anti-Israel groups, including the EAPPI and indeed Sadaka seems to focus on bolstering Christian support for Arab-Palestinian perspectives.
If Sadaka supports one side, then it spits on the other. For example, two years ago, the group lobbied politicians in Britain and Ireland, with the presentation of a film depicting Christian Zionism as a fanatical and dangerous ideology, with the intent of defaming Christian supporters of Israel as well as reducing the natural solidarity many feel toward the Jewish State. Anti-Semitic replacement theologian Stephen Sizer was involved with the project.
Sadaka has voiced support for Israel Apartheid week, which contributes a divisive message to students the world over. Such a damaging group should not be involved with the education of the young.
Surprise may be tempered by foreknowledge of the characters involved, and if Waters’ forceful record on politics is an indicator, his endorsement was likely to be sought by a prejudicial party. Indeed, the modular course deals with the Israel-Palestine conflict, one of Mr. Waters’ pet subjects. Another piece of the jigsaw fell into place when it was revealed that the programme was developed by a group called Sadaka — The Ireland Palestine Alliance.
It is reputedly the first curriculum approved teaching module on the topic, and will be used in both the Republic and North of Ireland. The chairwoman of Sadaka pointed out that Waters’ endorsement of the pack would be “immeasurable in its importance and will be hugely influential with young people around the country”. Its launch was held at the Royal Irish Academy, a rather prestigious venue for furthering academic endeavour.
The educational programme bears all the hallmarks of propaganda, featuring an extremely slanted account of the Israel-Palestine conflict.
Base propaganda
Sadaka is an organisation that closely monitors the activities of the Irish Parliamentary houses, to influence outlooks and policy decisions, for example, with the hosting of anti-Israel delegations that at times indicate the organisation works quite closely with the parliamentary members comprising Oireachtas Friends of Palestine.
Sadaka supports the boycott of all Israel, an absolute ban on all Jewish produce originating in Judea and Samaria (West Bank), Israel’s cessation as a Jewish majority state by advocating for a right of return for the descendents of all Arab refugees, and the immediate withdrawal of Israeli forces from all contested areas. Some of those hostile to the Jewish State erroneously claim that Israel discriminates at an institutional level against Arab non-citizens in the contested territory of Judea and Samaria (or West Bank), when in fact alternative legislature for the Arab-Palestinian populace was enshrined in the Oslo Accords, where the Palestinian Authority obtained jurisdiction over almost all Arab-Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. Yet Sadaka goes even further by claiming that Israel is an apartheid state in its entirety, discriminating against its Palestinian citizens at an institutional level.
Sadaka is an Islamic term for a type of religiously motivated voluntary charity, albeit one with a layered and sometimes less benign meaning. Sadaka comes across as a well-moneyed group, although their patronage webpage has remained empty for a number of years.
Despite the fact that the Irish media is comprehensively pro-Palestinian, it remains a key aim of Sadaka to shout down what it calls ‘Israeli propaganda’:
To challenge and defeat Israeli propaganda through the development of a high profile media presence.
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| Extract of “How to argue the case”, by Danny Morrison |
To illustrate Sadaka’s approach to the Israel-Palestine conflict, it should be noted that the group coaches anti-Israel neophytes with extremely inaccurate information. It unashamedly coaches the naive in sophistic techniques to defeat the arguments of those possessing other political views. For example, a lengthy article by founding Sadaka member David Morrison, entitled “How to argue the case”, states:
All that is necessary is to state basic facts, calmly and precisely, over and over and over again… tirades against Israel and/or its supporters are counterproductive for changing doubters into supporters. Tirades will be dismissed as coming from partisan opponents of Israel. There is a much better chance of convincing sceptics if you state basic facts about Israel’s behaviour, calmly and precisely.
Israeli sources are especially good, because it is difficult to challenge their validity. Failing that, quote highly regarded public figures (eg Jimmy Carter or Mary Robinson or Richard Goldstone) or institutions…
When responding to a protagonist, select the point or points that can be easily refuted and ignore the rest… Stick to making the case against Israel and for Palestinians: don’t be distracted on to any other issue.Morrison’s “Israeli sources” that are “difficult to challenge” is obviously a reference to Haaretz, a mainstream news outlet that has built up a considerable notoriety in Israel for defaming the Jewish nation. Haaretz has generated a remarkable number of falsehoods over the last decade.
Morrison cites a 2009 interview with Khaled Mashaal, claiming that Hamas would accept Israel’s right to exist. Such fanciful claims have been peddled about for years.
Sadaka does not content itself with bashing Israel. They also advance pro-Iranian stances, claiming Iran acts transparently vis-à-vis its attempt to obtain nuclear weapons, whilst ignoring its genocidal threats:
Unlike Iran’s nuclear facilities, which are open to international inspection, Israel’s are cloaked in secrecy…
Hardly a day passes by without Israel threatening to use force against some state or group in the Middle East. These days, Iran is the main target for its threats but Lebanon and Syria are also mentioned from time to time.David Morrison has defended Iran in other venues. He admires its record on the treatment of its Jewish citizens, claiming they freely choose to remain in Iran, despite the overt reality that Iranian Jews have little freedom.
Sadaka is associated with many anti-Israel groups, including the EAPPI and indeed Sadaka seems to focus on bolstering Christian support for Arab-Palestinian perspectives.
If Sadaka supports one side, then it spits on the other. For example, two years ago, the group lobbied politicians in Britain and Ireland, with the presentation of a film depicting Christian Zionism as a fanatical and dangerous ideology, with the intent of defaming Christian supporters of Israel as well as reducing the natural solidarity many feel toward the Jewish State. Anti-Semitic replacement theologian Stephen Sizer was involved with the project.
Sadaka has voiced support for Israel Apartheid week, which contributes a divisive message to students the world over. Such a damaging group should not be involved with the education of the young.
Also published at Crethi Plethi.
20 comments:
Zionists will interpret anything as 'anti-Semitic' if it doesn't fit the ideal pro-Israel view. Funnily enough Israeli leaders will happily shake hands with John Hagee and Ian Paisley is fully behind Israel too.
The Irish Education system has a few problems but 'anti-Semitism' isn't one. The teacher's unions need a good kick up the arse first and foremost.
Iran isn't exactly a bastion of religious tolerance but it's hardly oppressive towards its tiny, insideous Jewish population. They even have parliamentary seats reserved and there has been no synagogue bombs or mobs attacking them.
Christian Zionists are fully demented. Jesus actually said this about the Jews
John 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Hala, I think I must have deleted your comment by mistake so I have taken the liberty of reposting it. However, I cannot to accept any links to anti-Semitic hate sites such as "The Ugly Truth". This goes particularly for conspiracist sites, which feed on misinformation and ignorance that is repeatedly refuted but constantly regurgitated for a complicit audience that seeks validation of its hate. There are many venues on the internet where this hateful content can be posted. You are welcome to express your opinions as I value free speech but please desist from posting hate-site links or posts may be deleted.
It is unfortunate you deem such ill-reputed sites to be acceptable, and I think you need to ask why for example you agree with a Holocaust denier that Jews invented democracy to protect themselves, while advocating for democracy with respect to the Egyptian people. Is it not evident that you hate Jewish people yourself? I firmly believe that it is your right to hate them. You may even be right because there are relatively objective reasons for disliking certain groups of people, e.g. if the Irish drink too much, and a person finds that a destructive influence, they may have genuine reasons for disliking Irish culture. However, no matter how negative a person’s views may be, I believe there is one absolute we must all abide by from a moral perspective. We must be completely honest about our views. If they are true we will be right, if they are false we will be wrong. For you to say all Zionists accuse all critics of anti-Semitism, and also accuse me of the same when I have avoided labeling you such, is quite unfair.
I would like to make it clear that the article does not suggest the primary and secondary Irish education system has a problem with anti-Semitism. Rather the concern is that this new module is prejudicial. It is anyone’s right to believe what they wish to believe but it is a step too far to feed children such highly prejudicial material. The education authorities should be aware of such issues.
Iran make a big song and dance about being tolerant despite being Islamist. Iran is appalling toward its Sunni minority, where they are systematically disenfranchised. I am also annoyed about its treatment toward Christians. It is also very http://frontpagemag.com/2013/majid-rafizadeh/humanitarian-tragedy-irans-beleaguered-jewish-community bad towards its Jews, and this is why so many fled the country.
You have been quoting scripture but please note that it’s no less an authority than St. Paul who states in Romans 11: “say then: Has God cast away his people? God forbid! For I also am an Israelite of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away his people which he foreknew.” –Jews turned away in anger at the preaching of the Gospel but can easily be restored to favour with God.
Isn't the Babylonian Talmud extremely deviated from the Torah however? If we begin to label things as racist and hateful and we respond by self censoring then, we are narrow-minded. Frontpagemag could be construed as Islamophobic and Arabphobic for example but nonetheless I will read what it has to say. I don't even know who ran the site you spoke of but I found his argument rather valid. Someone else posted me the link FYI.
You would like to feed children the "Im western, support the West" mumbo jumbo? I actually doubt young people care about what's being taught. Our society officially qualifies as degenerate and Ireland is now experiencing the late 60s.
Iran isn't appalling towards its Sunni minority. They just aren't bending over backwards for them. If you want to look at appalling systems, look at Bahrain, KSA, Iraq under Saddam. All treated Shias with disgusting contempt and violence. There are no Shias ramming cars and trucks into Sunni Mosques, mind you they've seriously tested Shia patience and retaliation will soon follow. Jews across the world only care about one country and Iran is rather tolerant considering. Jews fled because their financial resources were at stake. I will provide a link soon on Jewish loyalty. Iran's Christian population increased by 39% between 2002 and 2006 as Iran opened its arms to refugees fleeing Iraq. Iran also supports Armenia, the world's first Christian country, against its secular neighbour Azerbaijan. The Azeris would happily repeat the Armenian holocaust again if given the chance but Iran and Russia stand by her. Look up the Azerbaijani military and you'll see exactly where their modern equipment is coming from. Without Iran and Georgia, Armenia would be fully blockaded like Gaza. You also forget the Iran is supplying charitable groups like Hezbollah who've also opened their arms to Christian refugees and have rebuilt Christian houses destroyed by the Israelis. They have even sent Christmas cards to some family members of mine as a gesture of goodwill.
Jews can't be saved. In fact, Jesus wasn't necessarily a Jew but he was a Judahite. Jew just became a common myth.
Loyalty for ya http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Lebanon
BTW I forgot to mention Iran supports Assad and that Assad is currently protecting Christians in Syria.
Hala wrote: “If we begin to label things as racist and hateful and we respond by self censoring then, we are narrow-minded. Frontpagemag could be construed as Islamophobic and Arabphobic for example but nonetheless I will read what it has to say. I don't even know who ran the site you spoke of but I found his argument rather valid.”
It has nothing to do with self-censorship. We ought to label things racist/hateful when they clearly are of that character. If we avoid doing so it is a disservice to the truth. If arguments from such sites stand up to scrutiny then they will stand as the truth. I describe them as hate-sites because they peddle lies that have been repeatedly debunked by reliable sources of repute. Such sites do not have any place in proper discussion other than as examples of racism and hatred. This is a widely held view on the veracity of sources. Frontpagemag is very critical of Islam but it certainly isn’t against Arabs as a race.
“You would like to feed children the "Im western, support the West" mumbo jumbo? I actually doubt young people care about what's being taught. Our society officially qualifies as degenerate and Ireland is now experiencing the late 60s.”
Young people may not care what’s being taught but it is adults that set the curriculum. This information influences the young to some extent so educators have moral responsibilities. I would also be against a pro-Israel module. Societies have always been degenerate in one form are another. It is an unfortunate part of the human condition, which no political system or religion has been able to erase.
“Iran isn't appalling towards its Sunni minority. They just aren't bending over backwards for them. If you want to look at appalling systems, look at Bahrain, KSA, Iraq under Saddam. All treated Shias with disgusting contempt and violence. There are no Shias ramming cars and trucks into Sunni Mosques, mind you they've seriously tested Shia patience and retaliation will soon follow.”
Both sides were assaulting each other in Iraq. Iran caused an immense amount of trouble in the Sunni world – it openly incited for waragainst Saddam. Yes the Shia were treated badly by the Sunni majority but does that make it legitimate to then oppress the Sunnis in your own nations? Is it not better to act by example, and show what the Shia perceive as the moral superiority of their faith? Muslims oppress Christians in the Middle East, does that mean it is right for Christians to oppress Muslims in the West?
“You also forget the Iran is supplying charitable groups like Hezbollah who've also opened their arms to Christian refugees and have rebuilt Christian houses destroyed by the Israelis.”
I haven’t heard of that but it is the least they could do considering how they embedded themselves in so many Lebanese villages, to use the civilian populace as human shields. Hizbullah extracts taxes from the local populace, and funds itself with a massive drug/mafia infrastructure – hardly charitable.
“Jews can't be saved. In fact, Jesus wasn't necessarily a Jew but he was a Judahite. Jew just became a common myth.”
Credible sources do not state Jesus was not a Jew. I think Judahite just means a member of the tribe of Judah. God would by definition exist beyond time so giving favour to one group must be an eternal act.
“I forgot to mention Iran supports Assad and that Assad is currently protecting Christians in Syria.”
Indeed Assad is protecting Christians in Syria but that doesn’t confer that Iran has a benign policy towards Christians. The Alawi are *nominally* Shia like the Druze – hence Iran is allied with them, and doesn’t want another hostile Sunni state on its doorstep. The Alawi are afraid of the Sunni, who view them as heretics, and possibly pagans. They became natural allies of the Christians as a result.
What specifically was the problem with Jews in Lebanon mentioned in the link you posted?
Rob, you're being much too polite towards Hala.
Hala wants to claim he/she is not antisemitic yet spouts the worst possible antisemitic tropes.
Just to fisk his/her last comment, line by line:
Isn't the Babylonian Talmud extremely deviated from the Torah however?
No. The Talmud, both Babylonian and Jerusalem versions, expound on the Torah, the Oral Law. Please refrain from commenting on subjects about which you know nothing.
Denigrating the Talmud is one of the first refuges of the classic antisemite.
Jews across the world only care about one country and Iran is rather tolerant considering. Jews fled because their financial resources were at stake. I will provide a link soon on Jewish loyalty.
It's because of people like you, who hate Jews, that the Jews care so much about Israel, the one safe refuge for their nation.
Iran is tolerant of its Jews??? Bwa ha ha ha!!! Tell me another! That's why the huge Iranian Jewish population has shrunk from 100,000–150,000 in 1948 to 80,000 before the 1979 revolution, and has shrunk still further to only 8,756 Jews still living in Iran in 2011. See here
As for your "proof" of Jewish loyalty - I'm still waiting. It's been 2 or 3 days now. The link to Lebanon's Jews doesn't say anything new. It's just numbers. You have no proof because you're making it all up.
The dual loyalty charge is also one of the typical classic antisemitic tropes trotted out when all other arguments fail.
Jews can't be saved.
So you plan to kill them all? What a revolting statement. You are quite sickening.
In fact, Jesus wasn't necessarily a Jew but he was a Judahite. Jew just became a common myth.
More gobbledegook. What the hell was he if not a Jew? He might not have been a good Jew - depends if you're Christian or Jewish, but what is this "judahite" think you've just made up?
You're pathetic.
However you're a prime example of an antisemite. You ought to be framed and put on display in a museum.
Wow anneinpt you ought to change your name to contempt. Have you anything else besides 'pathetic' and 'anti semitic'?
"Isn't the Babylonian Talmud extremely deviated from the Torah however?
No. The Talmud, both Babylonian and Jerusalem versions, expound on the Torah, the Oral Law. Please refrain from commenting on subjects about which you know nothing."
"Denigrating the Talmud is one of the first refuges of the classic antisemite."
Didn't you see the question mark there? Or are you blind? I am allowed question anything I like you know, it's a free society. Is here in Ireland anyway.
Even Kissinger himself stated the Jews must be doing something wrong to provoke all the massacres that took place against the Jews.
Call it a safe haven, call it a beacon of shining democracy, call it whatever you like. People are opening their eyes. Ofc the average Tom, Dick and Harry isn't interested but the average politician is.
Most Iranian Jews fled in the early days of the Islamic revolution when people didn't really know what to expect.
My point about that link is that Lebanon is and always was a fair and inclusive society for various religions and despite equal treatment, Jews decided to jump ship after 1967.
"The dual loyalty charge is also one of the typical classic antisemitic tropes trotted out when all other arguments fail." Seriously? Anything else you want to add or just another accusation? I will provide a link soon to support my claim.
Clearly he wasn't a good Jew if he started saying he was the Messiah.
Someone ought to make a swear jar for that word 'anti semite'. You could fill up the federal reserve with the money raised.
Sorry for the late response Rob, nice to see someone isn't an emotional loose cannon. Well true but the good majority of Arabs are Muslim and Islam is very interlocked with Arab culture. My point is however credibility or a somewhat lack of it doesn't discredit a point if it's valid and the person is not.
You see, who defines neutral? I don't remember a long heap of articles about Israel in school nor do I remember it being anything other than the Suez Crisis. Well thanks to the Jewish controlled Hollywood and music industry our society has slid further. The most defining song of the 80s despite being released in 1979 was "Girls just wanna have fun". Not explicitly sexual but could be construed that way. Now songs like Robin Thicke's "Let me give it to you" are mainstream and that is derogatory. Even everyday common words and sentences are becoming sexualised and teenagers seem intimidating.
I believe Iraq has been ruled by a Sunni minority for the vast majority of the time since its independence. Saddam even built a highway directly next to the 3rd holiest site in Shia Islam in Najaf. Actually Sunnis are just throwing a temper tantrum there because their political privileges have been confiscated. Oh yes, Khomeini did after Iraq was attacking Iranian Kurds and supporting the MEK. I don't see how Iran treats its Sunni minority badly. They even issued a Fatwa against insulting ANY of Muhammad's wives because Aisha is an issue of heated debate among the two sects.
Conditions in Egypt for Christians are appalling but I can assure you this, as a Christian citizen of Lebanon, Im not discriminated against. Jordanian and up until this civil war, Syrian Christians were too.
Hezbollah have done no such thing. Look up 'nature reserves' in reference to Hezbollah. People gleefully contribute to Hezbollah as Hezbollah is benevolent to Lebanon. They shelter the homeless, feed the poor and educate the illiterate. Most importantly however, they protect Lebanon from the entity down south.
Iran allies itself with Shia Hezbollah, Orthodox Russia, and Alawite Syria. How does that conflict with Christian interests?
Sorry, I will post links tomorrow as I am just too tired.
Ok here goes, Im more awake today.
The Talmud was invented by the Pharisees of whom arise up around the time the Kingdom of Judah had conquered the land of Edom and began converting the Edomites to their ways. The Talmud is a very hateful book, anything to do with non-Jews in Talmudic stance is "Unclean" and of a "lesser status". Here's some verses to show this:
“If a Jew murders a ‘goy’ there will be no death penalty.” (Sanhedrin 57a)
What a Jew steals from a ‘goy’ he may keep.” (Sanhedrin 57a)
“Even the best of the ‘goyim’ should all be killed.” (Soferim 15)
“If you eat with a ‘goy’ it is the same as eating with a dog.” (Tosapoth, Jebamoth 94b)
“The ‘goyim’ are not humans. They are beasts.” (Baba Mezia 114b)
“Sexual intercourse between the ‘goyim’ is like intercourse between animals.” (Sanhedrin 74b)
So, as we can see the Jewish peoples based on their "oral law" tradition is very oppressive, derogatory and sectarian against what they believe to be the "goy".
It's no wonder why then, that Jesus himself exposed them:
"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them."
Speaking of Jesus, let's see what the Talmud has to say about Him?
“Yashu (Jesus) was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness and refused to repent.” (Sotah 47a)
Yashu (Jesus) was sexually immoral and worshipped a brick.” (Sanhedrin 107b)
“‘Yashu’ (derogatory for ‘Jesus’) is in Hell being boiled in hot excrement.” (Gittin 57a)
Ok and as for 'dual' loyalty, I never claimed that. Jews have sole loyalty to one country only hence you chucked Britain aside there Anneipt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us9nnDfYZjs
Some other links to support my claim http://www.latimes.com/la-oe-stein19-2008dec19,0,2339294.column
So yeah, the Jews have perverted Western culture through the control of the media.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King%27s_Torah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm7a1F17vQ0
Hala, those supposed Talmud quotes are classic stances taken from anti-Semitic hate sites. fake Talmud quotes advanced by the likes of David Duke are used to incite the kind of genocidal hatred we saw in the Holocaust, a thing that I do not want any party with. Here is a source that addresses the issue in a comprehensive fashion http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/ including the quotes where it says Jews are allowed kill non-Jews http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/kill.html - it was a pronouncement in the case of the Jews fleeing slavery in Egypt when Egyptians tried to stop them.
Most holy books have problematic statements - would you like me to quote verses from valid sources from the Koran, and why not criticise those even more than those of the Talmud as many senior Islamic teachers still endorse them? The question you might ask is why you focus exclusively on the Talmud.
Hala: "It's no wonder why then, that Jesus himself exposed them: "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.""
That was a quote in relation to the Pharisee's in Matthew 23 rather than the Jews, which are a related but very distinctive group. The verse is a warning about moral hypocrisy – believe me there is a lot of that in Ireland so are the Irish to be condemned the same as the Jews? There’s vast moral hypocrisy all over the world, so again no reason to focus on one group, let alone do so to the exclusion of all others.
Hala: “My point is however credibility or a somewhat lack of it doesn't discredit a point if it's valid and the person is not.”
The credibility of a source is absolutely critical. That’s why I reference almost every assertion I make. In academia, if a historian gets something dramatically wrong their careers are often damaged. If they knowingly peddle untruths, their careers are destroyed. The point is that we all rely on the knowledge of others to inform our understanding of the world. If those people try to manipulate or deceive, they are not worthy of trust again because firstly we have to rely on their claims for verifiability again, and are not worthy of any respect either as the pursuit of knowledge is so fundamental to human existence.
Your video posted by one “John Doe” references speeches of Rudolph Hess as well as Jewish involvement in the Vietnam War, thus a fantasist rather than a credible source. Moreover the video appears to be made by one Max Blumenthal http://www.newsrealblog.com/2010/02/10/salon-and-cjr-agree-max-blumenthal-is-a-liar/ – the leftist “activist” famous for being repeatedly lying. This is what I mean by using sources of repute or at least ones that have not been discredited. If you have to rely on such sources to validate your opinions then it is correct to ask if those opinions can be validated at all.
I wrote more to answer your points in a lot of detail but I fear it will be a continuation of our discussion on the other thread, where you keep counter-asserting. We have been talking about this issue on and off for some time now so it may help to make a suggestion. You are of course welcome to post on here but before I answer further I would like to ask if you are willing to genuinely reflect on the points that are being made by myself and whoever else posts, rather than driving over those views without engaging deeply on the issues – no offense meant btw. Otherwise I hope you understand that it will be a lot of effort replying for little reason because I have almost zero time to devote to this interest at present, and it will just be like two voices talking at each other without the possibility of any meaningful discussion.
Well it is nice that your link can help me understand one Talmudic quote Rob but how do you explain these sickening things?
“Yashu (Jesus) was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness and refused to repent.” (Sotah 47a)
Yashu (Jesus) was sexually immoral and worshipped a brick.” (Sanhedrin 107b)
“‘Yashu’ (derogatory for ‘Jesus’) is in Hell being boiled in hot excrement.” (Gittin 57a)
“Miriam(The Virgin Mary) the hairdresser had sex with many men.” (Shabbath 104b) .
You question my intentions of mentioning these quotes like I am some genocidal maniac but I am only stating the truth. To be quite fair I know what the Koran says and I am not a Muslim so it really does not affect me what is says or does not say but even the Koran is not as sick as this. Of course it is also convenient so you can drag the attention away from the Satanic Talmud.
I know I made many points but you failed to address most others. Time is tight I understand and you probably would prefer an echo chamber over a proper reasonable debate so I will leave it at this anyway. I was addressing anneipt over the Talmud just FYI but you answered it for her.
Hello Hala: "Well it is nice that your link can help me understand one Talmudic quote Rob but how do you explain these sickening things?…”
There were insulting passages about Christians in the Talmud but are there not also negative reflections on Jews in Christian texts. Until recently popular Christian prayer included references to the "perfidious Jew" etc. The attacks by John Chrysostom and many others through the Millennia describing Jews as sub-human cannot be ignored, and are the very reason we had centuries of pogroms of which the Holocaust was merely the finale.
Having said that, a lot of the Talmud is wilfully misinterpreted and twisted for political ends. The link I sent to you addresses virtually every quote http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/ you posted up. There is also the widely available responses http://www.frum.org/talmud/ by Michael Gruda.
To take one example, there is no consensus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud that Yashu was indeed Jesus Christ in every case. There were many prophets claiming to be Christ as predicted in Jewish scripture. These people were often treated harshly. Can you show me an example of where Christians or Muslims treated what they perceived to be an extreme heresy with tolerance? The point is that you and others judge Jews by different standards to others. That is morally unjust.
Hala: "You question my intentions of mentioning these quotes like I am some genocidal maniac but I am only stating the truth."
No, you are stating what you were taught to be the truth. Verification of its validity is required. If it is the truth no one should be afraid if questioning it. Moreover, I made it clear I was not accusing you of being a genocidist but rather than the content you quote was quite literally used as a justification to slaughter people, men women and children indiscriminately, and by neo-Nazi would-be genocidists today. Again I suggest reading Malcolm Hay's book Europe and the Jews. If you like I will post a link to the first chapter. It is a profound text.
Hala: "To be quite fair I know what the Koran says and I am not a Muslim so it really does not affect me what is says or does not say but even the Koran is not as sick as this. Of course it is also convenient so you can drag the attention away from the Satanic Talmud."
Hala, the Koran certainly impacts you and your people to a considerably greater extent than the Talmud ever could. That is why I have been referring to it. Commentators have predicted that Christian society will no longer exist in the Arab Islamic world in the next few decades. By contrast Christians in Israel are flourishing. Yet all you do is obsess about Jews, who have minimal influence there. Here is what the Koran says about Christians http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/christians.htm claiming that belief in the trinity makes them idolatrous polytheists. Christians are thus unbelievers and so deemed "the vilest http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/009-friends-with-christians-jews.htm of animals"
"I know I made many points but you failed to address most others. Time is tight I understand and you probably would prefer an echo chamber over a proper reasonable debate so I will leave it at this anyway."
I have said that I have written responses already to every one of your other points but before posting them up I asked you to approach them with sincerity, and to agree to reflect upon them as otherwise the exercise is pointless. I have little belief that you will eventually agree with me because I can see how passionate you are but I would expect you to at least address the contradictions in your viewpoint, for example blaming Jews for creating democracy, and yet advocating it for the Egyptians.
Christians in Israel have a sustainable birth rate and that is it. Demographic growth doesn't equate a flourishing society. In fact, Lebanese, Syrian and Jordanian Christians enjoy equal status and are active participants in politics and society. Lebanese Christians don't have a strong birth rate but neither does Lebanon as a whole. Partially due to the fear of the entity down south and the constant loom of war. Lol, demographics indicate Christians in Lebanon will slightly grow as an overall percentage by 2050 too so there'll be no threat of Lebanese Christians disappearing. Syrian Christians might unfortunately because the West, Israel and the Gulf states are trying to topple their protector. Jordanian Christians are relatively safe and comfortable. Copts unfortunately are having an awful time but they've enough sense to see Israel for what it is. Their last Pope was even exiled following Egypt's capitulation to the West in 1979 by that puppet Sadat. Iraqi Christians too have been obliterated because of the policies of the West. Israel is hardly benevolent to Christians around the region either. Lebanon for a start is an example. Syria too. And Ofc Armenia is the best example. Although 'The greater Middle East' Armenia is still relevant. First Christian nation on Earth and guess who supplies their arch enemy's material needs? Israel. Not only that but Israeli officials not only ignored the Armenian holocaust but they flat out rejected it. It is relevant to mention their relationship with the Turks to as they've violated the island of Cyprus. Israel was a steadfast supporter of Turkey throughout its expansionist greed. Even over that little island rock in the 90s that almost caused war with Greece. It is important to note the people who chiefly support Israel too. Americans, Ulster loyalists and maybe some Canadians. Basically, other colonial thieves who share a common purpose.
Just checked out that "Religionofpeace" website and it's lovely how they try to characterise Muslims as primitive beings with various pictures. Im not going to defend the Koran however but I will defend the average Muslim and say the majority aren't like that. But seen as how you like to portray Muslims in a certain way, I have found this link just for the craic. It is right gas if you have a sense of humour http://www.radioislam.org/photos/jews/jew_photos.htm
I believe I said about the former Malaysian PM "Some of his points were correct". I never said he was completely but democracy is a constantly changing concept so he could make a point about it without critics reverting to 'Athenian democracy'. Slaves outnumbering the local populants 3:2 and women having no say at all wouldn't qualify as democracy in the 21st century. I also said Egypt shouldn't follow a Western model as it's not in the West.
Considering the blasphemous quotes attributed to the Virgin Mary, and the comparison of "Goyim" to dogs, it is reasonable to conclude that "Yashu" is in fact Yeshua (Jesus) and that Jews are just being derogatory. You are the one twisting things to add difficulty in this respect, not those who expose what the Talmud actually says. Ofc these people are just being 'Anti-Semitic'
I don't judge anyone differently than others and this frequent referencing to the Koran just shows that you judge Muslims differently to Jews."Yashu" If it is the truth no one should be afraid if questioning it. Moreover, I made it clear I was not accusing you of being a genocidist but rather than the content you quote was quite literally used as a justification to slaughter people, men women and children indiscriminately, and by neo-Nazi would-be genocidists today." Lol, I stated direct quotes. Then you say that people justify or have justified these quotes for their own hateful actions. Well by that standard, everything should be censored. Also this constant referencing to Neo-Nazism? I don't see the point? Are you sublimally trying to say I am one? Ofc labeling someone as an extremist not worthy of an opinion is a handy way of disregarding a valid argument. That is what states and dictators have done throughout the years and guess what, people were afraid to question the truth. Even though you said "If it is the truth no one should be afraid if questioning it"
Hello Hala, Unfortunately your replies have deteriorated, and it is with regret that I have to conclude you are unwilling to discuss the issues with sincerity, even if it was destined we would never agree.
Out of courtesy I will leave you with the last word if you want but, if you wish to comment on later articles, I ask that you focus on the explicit topic of the article itself since I have limited time and wish to promote discussion of those issues with the comment section. I have asked the same of others before.
Hala: “Christians in Israel have a sustainable birth rate and that is it.”
Israeli Christians are actually progressing better in third level education http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4323529,00.html than their Jewish and Muslim counterparts. The Christian population is small but not out of any animus against Israel. An increasing number of Christians http://blog.camera.org/archives/2013/10/wheres_the_coverage_israeli_ch.html are expressing strong support for Israel itself, despite intense pressure from their Islamic compatriots.
After the civil war Lebanon adopted a bi-national framework so I agree the Christians there would be less discriminated against but the fears there concerning Islamic extremism are nonetheless real http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Politics/Jan/04/Political-leaders-call-for-Arab-strategy-to-protect-Christians.ashx#axzz2gwh5HDjK and come after its Christian majority state (the only existent one in the Middle East) became a Christian minority due to the civil war, which few acknowledge was fought on sectarian grounds, with the PLO http://newspaperblog.over-blog.com/pages/genocides-crimes-and-massacres-committed-by-plo-and-the-syrians-against-lebanon-3901379.html as its savage instigators. Jordanian Christians are perhaps the best treated of all Arab nations but you may deem them “puppets”.
Hala: “Copts unfortunately are having an awful time but they've enough sense to see Israel for what it is. Their last Pope was even exiled following Egypt's capitulation to the West in 1979 by that puppet Sadat.”
Coptic Christians are being forced to flee Egypt but instead of addressing that seriously you turn that tragedy into another opportunity to criticise Israel! Sadat wasn’t perfect but still admirable for going against intense local pressure to make peace with Israel. There needs to be more like him but tellingly you don’t want peace between Israel and Egypt. It sounds like you advocate for Israel’s destruction.
Hala: “Iraqi Christians too have been obliterated because of the policies of the West.” Iraqi Christians were obliterated by Islamists, of which there are reports they even sought the Jizya head tax. Iraqi Christians were a central part of the nation. I wish to give people the benefit of the doubt but can’t you see this sounds like an apology for overt ethnic cleansing? Why not blame the real perpetuators?
Hala: “Armenia is the best example… guess who supplies their arch enemy's material needs? Israel. Not only that but Israeli officials not only ignored the Armenian holocaust but they flat out rejected it.”
Here is a good example of what I can only describe as an unfortunate hypocrisy because you minimise and partly excuse the appalling harm done to Christian communities in the Middle East, whilst going on about Armenia! Israel has ok relations with the country as the Wiki entry (amongst others) attests but if you have better (reliable) sources please post. I agree the statement by Perez was bad but aside from his statement it was not echoed in Israel’s overall stance, and the country has debated the issue in recent years, and is bringing in a recognition law http://www.todayszaman.com/news-313538-israeli-parliament-to-prepare-armenian-genocide-recognition-law.html about it. It is widely understood Perez said it just to appease Turkey, and he goes out of his way to appease Abbas (a Holocaust-denier) etc. which is not necessarily the State’s position, the role of President is a figurehead position like Ireland.
Hala: “Just checked out that "Religionofpeace" website and it's lovely how they try to characterise Muslims as primitive beings with various pictures… I will defend the average Muslim and say the majority aren't like that. But seen as how you like to portray Muslims in a certain way,”
I only quoted that website because it was the first to come up with a relevant entry on unbelievers. I didn’t see any pictures of Muslims you refer to but in any case it may not be an appropriate website for using as an objective source even though the verses quoted on the webpage I cited are not inaccurate.
You seem to be suggesting I am Islamophobic. I too believe most Muslims are not destructive although I recognise a disturbing propensity toward fanaticism in a minority. This is borne out by objective studies, e.g. a 2011 PEW poll found that 83% of Egyptians support death for apostasy.
Hala: “I believe I said about the former Malaysian PM "Some of his points were correct".
You specifically referred to his take on democracy, without qualification about democracy then as opposed to now. I took your contrasting stance as indicating a willingness to believe anything negative about the Jewish people even when it clashed with your overall worldview. Thus you were pro-democracy and turned against democracy in a specific instance when it’s associated with Jews.
Hala: “Considering the blasphemous quotes attributed to the Virgin Mary, and the comparison of "Goyim" to dogs, it is reasonable to conclude that "Yashu" is in fact Yeshua (Jesus) and that Jews are just being derogatory. You are the one twisting things to add difficulty in this respect, not those who expose what the Talmud actually says.”
I’m telling inconvenient truths. I posted an entry pointing to the fact that there is no consensus in many cases that the Talmud is referring to Jesus although it seems very likely in some. Yet there isn’t even consensus on when many of these scripts were written – some ancient & others not. Nonetheless I accepted there was genuinely insulting content in it but place it in context of Christian attacks on Jews. Is it not correct to analyse the acts of both opponents rather than focusing exclusively on blaming one?
Hala: “I don't judge anyone differently than others and this frequent referencing to the Koran just shows that you judge Muslims differently to Jews.”
My frequent referencing to the Koran?? I quoted one or two lines, you have been posting loads about the Talmud!! I have concerns about Islamism but truly hope the Islamic world can reconcile itself with the rest of the world, after all the Near and Middle East was the cradle of human civilisation – I have long admired the Sumerian civilisation. I believe the people of region have a lot to offer the world if it can only get past the vicious sectarianism. It will be better not just for the West but everyone involved.
Hala: “Lol, I stated direct quotes. Then you say that people justify or have justified these quotes for their own hateful actions. Well by that standard, everything should be censored. Also this constant referencing to Neo-Nazism… Are you sublimally trying to say I am one?”
Once again you are treating this exchange as a competition, and perhaps intentionally twisting what I am saying. I think I have made an effort to be civil, pointing out I wasn’t calling you a genocidist, and yet you still accuse me of accusing you of being a neo-Nazi! It is not so much the quotes themselves as the context in which you put those quotes up that led me to point to this being an advocacy of genocidists. The quotes stripped of their own context, to attack the Jews whilst ignoring the fact that Christians have incited far more themselves. That stuffs the basic fodder for all far-right/neo-Nazi sites.
Yes no one should be afraid of the truth - I have even said you could conceivably be right that basically all Jews are evil. However, the right to express such views doesn't immunise the speaker to criticism.
"Some objected to Waters presenting the honour due to the use of anti-Semitic motifs at his concerts in recent years. However, Amnesty has long been a politically partisan organisation. Amnesty’s bias was aptly illustrated on the night in question: Malala Yousafzai’s much-deserved award was shared with Harry Belafonte! While Belafonte contributed to the 1960’s Civil Rights movement, in more recent years he stirred controversy with demented and very often hateful commentaries."
LOl enough said.
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